Sarah Jeong and The NY Times

[Karha of Honor]

I know it's gosh to use wikipedia as a source, but
"The Unite the Right rally, also known as the Charlottesville rally or Charlottesville riots,[4] was a white supremacist[5][6][7][8] rally that occurred in Charlottesville, Virginia, from August 11 to 12, 2017."

You attend a White Supremacist rally, you are a white supremacist.

Were there even more Tiki torch people there than Oath keepers?

Every oath keeper who attended was ready and willing to march alongside people with swastikas shouting "Jews will not replace us!"

The whole thing was a white supremacist rally to support a white supremacist statue honoring the history of a war that white supremacists fought to keep their black slaves.

So i guess no one can celebrate July the 4th from now on.

[Worffan101]

So i guess no one can celebrate July the 4th from now on.

This is the most absurd thing I've ever heard a person say in more than two decades, and that includes a couple of idiots in Indiana loudly informing their kid that ring-tailed lemurs were raccoons as he attempted to correct them, six inches in front of the very large sign indicating what the lemurs were.

What is being said is that if someone is marching alongside neo-Nazis who are waving Nazi flags and shouting racist slogans, and that someone is there because they agree with the Nazis that Robert E. Lee was not a traitor and should be honored with a statue in the country that he betrayed, and they neither object to the flags that were the literal symbol of a regime whose entire raison d'etre was predicated upon batshit crazy ethnoreligious hatred (a regime, let us not forget, that intentionally murdered 6 million Jews and 5 million or so others even before you include the civilian casualties that resulted from the war that the Nazis started) nor object to the racist and antisemitic slogans being shouted...it really doesn't fucking matter if they call themselves Nazis, alt-right, "Oathkeepers", "Blue Lives Matter", the KKK, or neo-Confederates. They are, by marching alongside and not objecting to the outright neo-Nazis, making a political statement that they think the Nazis are in the right and are people that they feel comfortable associating with.

I don't feel comfortable around Nazis or the people that associate with them, because those people are (being Nazis) motivated primarily by idiotic hatred of anyone who is insufficiently white, male, straight, cisgendered, and whatever other bullshit categorization that they use to divide humanity into ridiculous little sub-categories to justify their insane ideology. Yeah, even the people who associate with Nazis. If you think Nazis are very fine people, you are a bad person, because you believe that people who want to exterminate literally millions if not billions of people are very fine people. That is not cool. Exterminating people is wrong. Treating people like shit because they were born in the wrong bullshit category is wrong.

And on an unrelated point, putting a statue of Lee up in the USA is like putting a statue of George Washington up in Trafalgar Square.

tl;dr: It doesn't really matter what the people at Charlottesville called themselves. If they were at the rally with the guys waving Nazi flags and watched the racist rants and didn't say or do anything to protest, they are complicit.

[Karha of Honor]

So i guess no one can celebrate July the 4th from now on.

This is the most absurd thing I've ever heard a person say in more than two decades, and that includes a couple of idiots in Indiana loudly informing their kid that ring-tailed lemurs were raccoons as he attempted to correct them, six inches in front of the very large sign indicating what the lemurs were.

What is being said is that if someone is marching alongside neo-Nazis who are waving Nazi flags and shouting racist slogans, and that someone is there because they agree with the Nazis that Robert E. Lee was not a traitor and should be honored with a statue in the country that he betrayed, and they neither object to the flags that were the literal symbol of a regime whose entire raison d'etre was predicated upon batshit crazy ethnoreligious hatred (a regime, let us not forget, that intentionally murdered 6 million Jews and 5 million or so others even before you include the civilian casualties that resulted from the war that the Nazis started) nor object to the racist and antisemitic slogans being shouted...it really doesn't fucking matter if they call themselves Nazis, alt-right, "Oathkeepers", "Blue Lives Matter", the KKK, or neo-Confederates. They are, by marching alongside and not objecting to the outright neo-Nazis, making a political statement that they think the Nazis are in the right and are people that they feel comfortable associating with.

I don't feel comfortable around Nazis or the people that associate with them, because those people are (being Nazis) motivated primarily by idiotic hatred of anyone who is insufficiently white, male, straight, cisgendered, and whatever other bullshit categorization that they use to divide humanity into ridiculous little sub-categories to justify their insane ideology. Yeah, even the people who associate with Nazis. If you think Nazis are very fine people, you are a bad person, because you believe that people who want to exterminate literally millions if not billions of people are very fine people. That is not cool. Exterminating people is wrong. Treating people like shit because they were born in the wrong bullshit category is wrong.

And on an unrelated point, putting a statue of Lee up in the USA is like putting a statue of George Washington up in Trafalgar Square.

tl;dr: It doesn't really matter what the people at Charlottesville called themselves. If they were at the rally with the guys waving Nazi flags and watched the racist rants and didn't say or do anything to protest, they are complicit.

Why couldn't there be a Washington statue on Trafalgar sqaure?

They were kinda busy making sure the situation won't turn into a bloodbath.

You really think a couple of words from an Oathkeeper weill change the minds of the small number of Nazis that exist within the US? Why would you assume that street preACHING AT THEM would work?

[Worffan101]

Why couldn't there be a Washington statue on Trafalgar sqaure?

They were kinda busy making sure the situation won't turn into a bloodbath.

You really think a couple of words from an Oathkeeper weill change the minds of the small number of Nazis that exist within the US? Why would you assume that street preACHING AT THEM would work?

1. Seriously? You seriously have to ask? OK, genius, think about it this way. Would the House of Bourbon put up a statue to Napoleon? Would we put one up to Benedict Arnold? No. Britain will put a statue of Washington in Trafalgar Square the day they put one of Cromwell in Buckingham Palace and the Chinese build a skyscraper in the exact likeness of Aisin-Goro Xianyu.

2. Who, the Nazis? Or the people who thought the Nazis were very fine people? Because the police WERE there, albeit with a shit plan and not equipped for a violent Nazi mob armed with homemade weapons, and quite frankly it isn't the job of a bunch of nutty soldier roleplayers to calm down a tense situation, because the presence of armed soldier roleplayers amid a Nazi march will inevitably cause problems.

3. It isn't about changing Nazi minds. Most of them are too drunk on the Kool-Aid to salvage without locking them up in a nice cell (a Norwegian style cell, the kind that's nicer than my apartment, I'm not a savage) for a few years to cool their heels and think about their life choices. It's about looking at yourself, where you are, the people around you, and deciding if you want to be a person who is OK with Nazis or a person who thinks that genocide is wrong and people who like genocide are bad people who need to be opposed.

[Karha of Honor]

Why couldn't there be a Washington statue on Trafalgar sqaure?

They were kinda busy making sure the situation won't turn into a bloodbath.

You really think a couple of words from an Oathkeeper weill change the minds of the small number of Nazis that exist within the US? Why would you assume that street preACHING AT THEM would work?

1. Seriously? You seriously have to ask? OK, genius, think about it this way. Would the House of Bourbon put up a statue to Napoleon? Would we put one up to Benedict Arnold? No. Britain will put a statue of Washington in Trafalgar Square the day they put one of Cromwell in Buckingham Palace and the Chinese build a skyscraper in the exact likeness of Aisin-Goro Xianyu.

2. Who, the Nazis? Or the people who thought the Nazis were very fine people? Because the police WERE there, albeit with a shit plan and not equipped for a violent Nazi mob armed with homemade weapons, and quite frankly it isn't the job of a bunch of nutty soldier roleplayers to calm down a tense situation, because the presence of armed soldier roleplayers amid a Nazi march will inevitably cause problems.

3. It isn't about changing Nazi minds. Most of them are too drunk on the Kool-Aid to salvage without locking them up in a nice cell (a Norwegian style cell, the kind that's nicer than my apartment, I'm not a savage) for a few years to cool their heels and think about their life choices. It's about looking at yourself, where you are, the people around you, and deciding if you want to be a person who is OK with Nazis or a person who thinks that genocide is wrong and people who like genocide are bad people who need to be opposed.

1. Today i doubt anyone would care about that Napoleon statue being put up by the Bourbons.
I could see a Benedict Arnold statue being viable at some places. Well China is a dictatorship so openess comes harder also Confucianism.

2. It's not the their job under normal circumstances or when law enforcement is competent.

3.Why stop at locking up Nazis for no reason? Who else would you want to lock into college dorms and lord over them?

You are a savage, you need to be locked into a Scandinavian prison to get your head right.
If you cannot oppose someone in a productive manner at day x in year y you should act in a way that makes no sense?

[Worffan101]

1. Today i doubt anyone would care about that Napoleon statue being put up by the Bourbons.
I could see a Benedict Arnold statue being viable at some places. Well China is a dictatorship so openess comes harder also Confucianism.

2. It's not the their job under normal circumstances or when law enforcement is competent.

3.Why stop at locking up Nazis for no reason? Who else would you want to lock into college dorms and lord over them?

You are a savage, you need to be locked into a Scandinavian prison to get your head right.
If you cannot oppose someone in a productive manner at day x in year y you should act in a way that makes no sense?

I'm putting you on ignore after this, because you're clearly deliberately refusing to comprehend what I write, and I'm 99% certain that you're an alt-right troll.

1. First of all, WOW that was a nasty casual insult to Confucianism. What the Hell does Confucianism have to do with anything? My obvious point was that traitors do not get celebrated by the country that they betrayed, be they Manchu princesses who worked for the Japanese, British citizens who led rebellions against the Crown, or slavers who threw a tantrum and seceded from the Union because owning people is wrong. Ergo, we really shouldn't have a statue of Lee up in America.

2. It's NEVER their job. Vigilantism is not OK and by standing around in their soldier cosplay with loaded weapons they are not only making law enforcement's already strained job harder, they're inflaming the situation and risking lives. If they want to help, they should either point the guns (unloaded, with safeties on) at the Nazis to scare the bastards off because we shouldn't welcome genocidal assholes in America, or they should go home and make the police's job easier. Or, if they REALLY want to help, join the police force officially.

3. I said that the only way to make most Nazis change their vile views is to lock them up (the adult version of grounding them) until they think about what they've done. It's frankly unfeasible as a legal solution, but there simply aren't that many ways to convince fanatics. Best way to handle them is wait until they commit a crime, then throw them in solitary for a decade. Cooling their nasty little heels ought to make them think about their misdeeds.

Have a nice day.

[Karha of Honor]

1. Today i doubt anyone would care about that Napoleon statue being put up by the Bourbons.
I could see a Benedict Arnold statue being viable at some places. Well China is a dictatorship so openess comes harder also Confucianism.

2. It's not the their job under normal circumstances or when law enforcement is competent.

3.Why stop at locking up Nazis for no reason? Who else would you want to lock into college dorms and lord over them?

You are a savage, you need to be locked into a Scandinavian prison to get your head right.
If you cannot oppose someone in a productive manner at day x in year y you should act in a way that makes no sense?

I'm putting you on ignore after this, because you're clearly deliberately refusing to comprehend what I write, and I'm 99% certain that you're an alt-right troll.

1. First of all, WOW that was a nasty casual insult to Confucianism. What the Hell does Confucianism have to do with anything? My obvious point was that traitors do not get celebrated by the country that they betrayed, be they Manchu princesses who worked for the Japanese, British citizens who led rebellions against the Crown, or slavers who threw a tantrum and seceded from the Union because owning people is wrong. Ergo, we really shouldn't have a statue of Lee up in America.

2. It's NEVER their job. Vigilantism is not OK and by standing around in their soldier cosplay with loaded weapons they are not only making law enforcement's already strained job harder, they're inflaming the situation and risking lives. If they want to help, they should either point the guns (unloaded, with safeties on) at the Nazis to scare the bastards off because we shouldn't welcome genocidal assholes in America, or they should go home and make the police's job easier. Or, if they REALLY want to help, join the police force officially.

3. I said that the only way to make most Nazis change their vile views is to lock them up (the adult version of grounding them) until they think about what they've done. It's frankly unfeasible as a legal solution, but there simply aren't that many ways to convince fanatics. Best way to handle them is wait until they commit a crime, then throw them in solitary for a decade. Cooling their nasty little heels ought to make them think about their misdeeds.

Have a nice day.

Did you put me in ignore? Because if you did i have to put you on ignore also for the sake of practicality.

Please send a PM if you reverse the decision.

[Antiboyscout]

This isn't intuition. This is analysis.

If somebody says "I'm just attending this Lower the Age of Consent to 9 Rally out of interest", I'm not taking their word for it. We are defined by our choices, not our spin.

That's funny, because people attending the Unite the Right rally would call it the Unite the Right rally. It's people like you that call it a Alt-right or White Supremacist rally.

Almost anyone can edit Wiki, Feminist hold edit-athons to do just that. Wiki mods have also shown a fair bit of progressive bias.

[Antiboyscout]

If I happen to be at a protest and see RCP nuts waving their Maoist rubbish around, I'll tell them to please find somewhere else to march because I may be a dirty Red but I don't associate with cultists like the RCP.

If you did that, they would call you a Nazi (or siding with nazi's) and beat you up.

That's the problem

And some things are worth getting beaten up for. What's your point?

Why is their accusation of NAZI any worse than yours?

Looking further into the thread I see you argue "Vigilantism is not OK". WTF do you think punching "nazi's" is or fighting Maoists is?

[Darth Wedgius]

That's not what aboutism, that's pointing out the flaw in your "logic." Your response was that if people didn't object to the Nazis, they were Nazis. That's not accurate. Not objecting to a group does not mean you are part of that group.

Also, Trump didn't call Nazis "very fine people." Trump said there were "very fine people" on both sides, and not everyone on the right side was a Nazi, Neo or otherwise. Not everyone was white supremacist or a white identitarian.

Read what I wrote to unknownsample about cars for more information on logic and sets. I thought it was very good.

It might be nice if you could provide some actual evidence that not everyone on the unite the right was a Nazi. That there were fine people on this march to protest the removal of a statue of a man who fought to protect slavery or and here's a interesting thought Trump was talking shite

What kind of evidence would you accept? Wikipedia lists several groups attending that do not identify themselves with national socialism.

Groups that do not publicly identify themselves with national socialism is a pretty low damn bar. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that, if you do Nazi things, and shout Nazi slogans, and march in Nazi marches, you're a Nazi whatever your club press release says.

This is why this is so frustrating to me. When I'm at a protest of Mike Pence, if I saw a fellow protester had a "NAMBLA" sign or some shit, I'd headbutt them on the nose and/or get the fuck out of their. If I am looking at a protest to sign up for, and I see in the description "celebrating the purity of the white race", I'm not gonna go there. There's an answer to your what-aboutism.

If you are siding with Nazis, that should be an invitation to introspection, not a cause to split hairs and make excuses.

Are you kidding me? You're going to decide on what someone is, based on your standards for deciding what they are? Really? Does this mean all Antifa are authoritation, anarchist, and socialist all at the same time?

Sorry, I have to disregard your intuition here and go with reason instead.

This isn't intuition. This is analysis.

If somebody says "I'm just attending this Lower the Age of Consent to 9 Rally out of interest", I'm not taking their word for it. We are defined by our choices, not our spin.

The Unite the Right protest was, in large part, an effort toward white nationalism, which I think of as lowly as black nationalism or any other kind of ethnic nationalism. But not everyone on the anti-statue-removal side was shouting distinctly Nazi slogans or white nationalist slogans. Several groups were there with an avowed purpose to protect the white nationalists' right to speak. You may not approve of that whole freedom of speech thing, but some of us still abide by the old adage, "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Some of Antifa are socialists, some are anarchists. If we went by your "logic," all of Antifa would be socialist and all would be anarchist, no matter what they claimed to be.

Feel free to assume that people you don't like have the motives you want them to have. I respect your right to have an opinion, but I see no reason to respect an irrational opinion itself.